Two Days With Rob Bell and John Shelby Spong

by Robert Rynders on March 11, 2010

in Christianity, Theology

A few weeks ago Melissa and I had a chance to see the increasingly popular Rob Bell, who serves as the pastor of Mars Hill Church in Grand Rapids Michigan and creator/star of the “Nooma” video study series and author of a number of books. For years I didn’t pay much attention to all the Rob Bell talk as I sort of wrote him off as a Joel Olsteen or other non-denominational rock stars who didn’t interest me. That was until I watched a Nooma video then began listening to his weekly podcast. What I discovered was a message that was new and fresh and not based on self help and the prosperity gospel. Actually, I found Bell’s messages to be fairly progressive, but not in your face. For example, Bell’s book and speaking tour is titled Drops Like Stars and is about his theology of suffering. He never really comes out and says bluntly that he does not believe God is a punishing and vengeful God that causes suffering as punishment and then backs up his statement with academic arguments. However, it is clear throughout his presentation his stories and creative illustrations focus on a God who suffers with us and calls us to work against suffering in world and to be a comforting presence to those who are suffering (process theology anyone?). Bell’s message is one that seems progressive but doesn’t make overt controversial statements, however, it is a style that seems to keep people listening and not shutting off when they hear something they don’t agree with. When some Christians in the media (John Piper, Pat Robertson) are proclaiming God’s wrath is found in tornados and earthquakes, Bell’s message is a refreshing and important one to hear.

I spent the entire next day at an event featuring retired Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spong. Actually, I had the privilege and honor to give the introduction of Bishop Spong to 250 people. Now if you want a progressive Christian leader/author/speaker with an “in-your-face” message, Bishop Spong is your guy. Spong’s appeal is definitely to older generations (of the 250 there were probably four of us under the age of 45 at the event) and his speaking style is more academic lecture oriented.

It’s not unusual for Bishop Spong to draw protesters to his events over his progressive stances on gay and lesbian rights in the church and his challenging and re-visioning of church doctrine. We did not have any protestors for the event, however, some church members were upset that we were hosting the event at Tempe First United Methodist. A few folks claimed he was “not a Christian” and we should not have him speak at our church.

A lot of actually have a lot of “colorful” things to say about Bishop Spong (he has received a number of legitimate death threats). His critics beliefs about him, however, are often formed without reading anything he has ever written, expect maybe some of his controversial quotes that are used to prooftext criticisms of him. If you actually read any of his books though you would find that he is man of deep Christian faith that cares deeply about Jesus and the future of the Church.

Take the following quote, for example: Bishop Spong writes on page 229 of Jesus For the Non-Religious, “It is my conviction that the essence of the Christian gospel can be summed up in words attributed to Jesus in the Fourth Gospel: ‘I have come that they might have life and have it abundantly’ (10:10). If abundant life is the ultimate value to which Christianity is dedicated, as I believe it is, then we must judge all contemporary expressions of Christianity by the standard of their ability to enhance life and where there are failures we must seek to understand why.”

Overall, Spong is seeking to expose the injustices of the Christian tradition that have promoted racism, sexism, ethnocentrism, and homophobia and have caused countless numbers of people a great deal of pain and in many cases death throughout history. Bishop Spong argues for a church, inspired by Jesus Christ that transcends categories and attitudes that seek to hurt others in the name of tradition and orthodoxy.

Needless to say it was an interesting couple of days that featured two amazing speakers/theologians. Both have very different styles of how they get their messages across and their primary appeal is to two completely different age groups.

So I guess my biggest question is, what will be more effective in shaping the future of the church, especially around issues of inclusiveness and peace and justice: A message presented in a more subtle, creative and even beautiful way like that of Rob Bell that may take longer to take effect, but may have a wider appeal? Or will it be a bold and straight forward message like that of Bishop Spong that doesn’t mess around and demands change right here, right now?

Tagged as: John Spong, progressive christianity, Rob Bell

  • http://www.livejournal.com/thunarsdottir Suzanne Jacobson

    I wonder if there isn’t some in-between state that might facilitate a more open, loving and, well, Jesus-like Christianity. Somewhere between subtlety that can get lost or missed and the kind of boldness that can throw up walls?

    Is there really a clear delineation along age lines regarding appeal and ability to relate? I have been hearing a lot about that lately, and wonder. Sometimes, some of us might be torn between our chronology and our sensibilities. I’m over 50; does that mean I have to join AARP and suddenly become unable to relate to my younger friends?

  • http://www.livejournal.com/thunarsdottir Suzanne Jacobson

    I wonder if there isn't some in-between state that might facilitate a more open, loving and, well, Jesus-like Christianity. Somewhere between subtlety that can get lost or missed and the kind of boldness that can throw up walls?

    Is there really a clear delineation along age lines regarding appeal and ability to relate? I have been hearing a lot about that lately, and wonder. Sometimes, some of us might be torn between our chronology and our sensibilities. I'm over 50; does that mean I have to join AARP and suddenly become unable to relate to my younger friends?

  • http://www.captureeverythought.com Ian Clark

    I’m a well known advocate…okay, fan of Rob Bell. I don’t think he’s out to win arguments. The history of Mars Hill Bible Church is a beautiful one with lots of ups and downs. Your initial perspective on Bell kind of surprised me. As you know, Rev. Rynders, I come from the very conservative side of church where Bell has been labeled a heretic (years ago). I have no idea why.
    With regards to the “in your face” approach. I think it has it’s place, especially when addressing the church (the profits are a good example of this as well as Jesus himself). I think it really depends on your audience.
    In political discussion between that included three well known Christian figures, Chuck Colson, Greg Boyd and Shane Claiborne, I think I heard it said best.
    Claiborne said something to the effect, “Having the right idea, doesn’t give you the right to be mean about it.”

  • http://www.ournewchapter.com Ian Clark

    I'm a well known advocate…okay, fan of Rob Bell. I don't think he's out to win arguments. The history of Mars Hill Bible Church is a beautiful one with lots of ups and downs. Your initial perspective on Bell kind of surprised me. As you know, Rev. Rynders, I come from the very conservative side of church where Bell has been labeled a heretic (years ago). I have no idea why.
    With regards to the “in your face” approach. I think it has it's place, especially when addressing the church (the profits are a good example of this as well as Jesus himself). I think it really depends on your audience.
    In political discussion between that included three well known Christian figures, Chuck Colson, Greg Boyd and Shane Claiborne, I think I heard it said best.
    Claiborne said something to the effect, “Having the right idea, doesn't give you the right to be mean about it.”

  • Anonymous

    Rob, this is a great question. We need to have people presented both messages, and doing so effectively. But I must say two things are discouraging: that Spong attracts only older audiences, and that moderate messages such as process theology have not drawn larger followings. What will it take for the progressive wing of the church to have a massive impact and following and for the media to recognize it as a huge force in Christianity?

    • http://www.robrynders.com Rob Rynders

      I have been wondering that myself lately… I watched parts of some of Mark Driscoll’s sermons to see what all the fuss was about. He’s not saying much of anything new but he does it in a rock n’ roll t-shirt and ripped-up jeans on a really cool looking stage. I would guess that his theology sounds “new” and “fresh” just by the fact that his form of Calvinism has not really been in the mainstream the past few years, as say the prosperity gospel has. Driscoll also speaks in absolutes and warns a lot of the “dangers” of liberal theologies and being “led astray.” I think the look and feel he presents draws people in and then the fear and absoluteness he instills in them keeps them there. It seems more progressive folks have not been able to find a way to do something similar and still remain authentic at the same time. Rob Bell has the look and draws the huge crowds, but I’m not sure he will be or wants to be the face of liberal Christianity for the 21st century.

      • Anonymous

        Rob, what if we choose not to fight for liberal Christianity anymore? What if we let the words “process” and even “progressive” go? What if we look for a “thick” description of what is the kingdom of God that Jesus preached (and lived)? What if we have not a Christocentric doctrine of God but a Jesu-centric doctrine of God, Spirit, church, etc.? This sounds evangelical, I suppose. But is it not radical enough to let the Jesus of the gospel come first and to test all things in light of it — not only institutional structures and ministries, but also traditional creeds and theologies?

        – Philip Clayton

  • philipclayton

    Rob, this is a great question. We need to have people presented both messages, and doing so effectively. But I must say two things are discouraging: that Spong attracts only older audiences, and that moderate messages such as process theology have not drawn larger followings. What will it take for the progressive wing of the church to have a massive impact and following and for the media to recognize it as a huge force in Christianity?

  • http://www.robrynders.com Rob Rynders

    I have been wondering that myself lately… I watched parts of some of Mark Driscoll's sermons to see what all the fuss was about. He's not saying much of anything new but he does it in a rock n' roll t-shirt and ripped-up jeans on a really cool looking stage. I would guess that his theology sounds “new” and “fresh” just by the fact that his form of Calvinism has not really been in the mainstream the past few years, as say the prosperity gospel has. Driscoll also speaks in absolutes and warns a lot of the “dangers” of liberal theologies and being “led astray.” I think the look and feel he presents draws people in and then the fear and absoluteness he instills in them keeps them there. It seems more progressive folks have not been able to find a way to do something similar and still remain authentic at the same time. Rob Bell has the look and draws the huge crowds, but I'm not sure he will be or wants to be the face of liberal Christianity for the 21st century.

  • philipclayton

    Rob, what if we choose not to fight for liberal Christianity anymore? What if we let the words “process” and even “progressive” go? What if we look for a “thick” description of what is the kingdom of God that Jesus preached (and lived)? What if we have not a Christocentric doctrine of God but a Jesu-centric doctrine of God, Spirit, church, etc.? This sounds evangelical, I suppose. But is it not radical enough to let the Jesus of the gospel come first and to test all things in light of it — not only institutional structures and ministries, but also traditional creeds and theologies?

    – Philip Clayton

  • Lori

    it seems valuable to have each person putting out the message in his own way, and in bishop sprong’s case, to his own people (the older set). why not? the question isn’t whether one approach is better than the other, but how we might add more approaches .. the more people who are sending out the message, in their own way, to their own crowd, the better. diversity is good.

  • Lori

    it seems valuable to have each person putting out the message in his own way, and in bishop sprong's case, to his own people (the older set). why not? the question isn't whether one approach is better than the other, but how we might add more approaches .. the more people who are sending out the message, in their own way, to their own crowd, the better. diversity is good.

  • GibsonF5

    “The only thing that matters is faith expressed through love…” I see that in these gentlemen, but my question would be to not only this “wave” of pastors/teachers/social-justice theologians is what about the scriptures we don’t want to hear? About our sin, about hell, and about Jesus Christ as being the Way, the Truth and the Life and that noone comes to the Father but through Him? To Rob Bell: yes, if Ghandi didnt put his trust in Jesus, he is in hell. I know he was a good guy, but goodness doesn’t inherit the kingdom, only the blood of Christ can guarantee our salvation. John Spong; you don’t have to be a socially accepted person, tell the truth about the gospel. Putting an end to racism, homophobia, xenophobia, all great endeavors–I hear about it all the time at my school : ) but the only way that would ever happen is if the racist came to Christ, the homophobe and the homosexual alike both came to Christ. All of the world’s problems are solved through one person: Jesus Christ. That is true unity.

  • GibsonF5

    “The only thing that matters is faith expressed through love…” I see that in these gentlemen, but my question would be to not only this “wave” of pastors/teachers/social-justice theologians is what about the scriptures we don’t want to hear? About our sin, about hell, and about Jesus Christ as being the Way, the Truth and the Life and that noone comes to the Father but through Him? To Rob Bell: yes, if Ghandi didnt put his trust in Jesus, he is in hell. I know he was a good guy, but goodness doesn’t inherit the kingdom, only the blood of Christ can guarantee our salvation. John Spong; you don’t have to be a socially accepted person, tell the truth about the gospel. Putting an end to racism, homophobia, xenophobia, all great endeavors–I hear about it all the time at my school : ) but the only way that would ever happen is if the racist came to Christ, the homophobe and the homosexual alike both came to Christ. All of the world’s problems are solved through one person: Jesus Christ. That is true unity.

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