What Would it Take For You to Lose Your Faith?

by Robert Rynders on March 8, 2010

in Theology

A few weeks ago I had an action packed week filled with some intense theological stimulation. It began when I heard that there was going to be a web-cast of a debate between my former theology professor, Philip Clayton, and “New Atheist” (of the Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris kind) Daniel Dennet. This was an interesting debate setup by Clayton after Dennett more or less refused to have a civil dialogue with him at an event in Cambridge last year. This, however, was not your typical mainstream Christian theologian vs. athiest debate as Clayton is a more progressive theologian who embraces modern reason and science and challenges the classical notion of a supernatural God.

At the end of the debate (around minute 25) Dennet challenged Clayton with a question that I am not sure Clayton really answered. Dennet asked, “If you changed your mind about what was “ultimate” to you, what would be different, what would the world look like to you then?” Then at around minute 29 he asked, “I still can’t see from your perspective what I am missing. Could anything ever happen in your experience that would make you go oh my gosh I was wrong about my ultimate reality… What would it be to wake up and think woops, wow, I was wrong. If you can’t tell me then I don’t know what you think your right about.” Clayton danced around the question for a bit and Dennet actually kept trying to keep him from squirming out of it. The conversation is unfortunately cut-off before we come to any clear resolution. But it’s a question that I think progressive Christians have trouble answering. While watching the debate I found myself trying to answer this question as well.

When your faith lies in a literal and factual interpretation of the Bible then the answer is simple, you would no longer believe in God if someone could prove to you that at least one thing in the Bible is just dead wrong, i.e. Noah never built an ark. For progressives, however, the answer could be tough. I believe though that the answer lies in experience. I could wake-up tomorrow and someone would have to present me evidence that my entire reality is false, that my experience of God was somehow induced by a drug or a brain malfunction. And I’m not talking about visions of angels and seeing Jesus in my toast. My experiences of God are rooted in my experience of the world, my feelings, and perceptions. God has never “spoken” to me in an audible voice or “appeared” to me physically. I don’t take the Bible literally and I am very cautious when it comes to church tradition, especially when it that tradition has marginalized or harmed/killed other people for disagreeing with it. Yet, I believe in God because of some deep and authentic real-life experiences that can never be disproven by science or rhetoric. I must also say that the Jesus story resonates with me at the core of my being. From what I have witnessed and experienced in life I am convinced that Jesus got it right regarding how I should view and interact with the world and live my life. This does not mean I believe everyone else is wrong it just means I see everything from a Christian perspective, one that I believe includes enough room, equally, for the perspective of others to be included in the conversation of the human story.

I could go on and on but I want to know: What would it take for you to wake up tomorrow morning and lose your faith?

———–
Part two of action packed theology week coming soon about my experience with Rob Bell and John Shelby Spong!

Tagged as: atheism, bible, jesus, progressive christianity, Theology

  • Drew Martin

    I’d be interested if for some, it was the loss/destruction of something they DID believe, or if it would be the
    arrival/validation/(whatever) of a COUNTER belief … I think which ever would CAUSE the loss of faith might indicate on what your faith rests more. Evidence? Most sound theory? Gut instinct?

    As a second/follow-up (taking a note from Clayton): How would your life be different? Would your interactions/values change?

  • Anonymous

    I have asked myself this question for many years. At times my scientific mind wants more proof than I have. But it always come down to what you said, Rob. My life experiences have been so convincing to me. I know it might be considered circumstantial to some, but I don’t believe in that much supercalifragilisticexpialidocious (sp?) coincidence in one person’s life time. I have experienced a sudden inner calm when praying during a time of really high anxiety. I have experienced concerns and fears over financial, career, family and personal issues which resolved in differring time frames, after I have prayed. I have experienced abilities that I do not possess suddenly being there for my use when I really needed it and more was at stake than just my own personal happiness. I have experienced urges to send a note or make a call when needed in a special way by the recipient. (ESP?? – Then why can’t I win at poker?) As you said, Jesus had it right. Truth is truth. The only thing which could convince me would be that I die and I die. But then I won’t know anyway, right? So if I am helping humanity and live a happier, more content life, why do some non-believers find it so important to convince me I am wrong? But if I am right, wouldn’t it behoove everyone to come check it out?

  • Drew Martin

    I'd be interested if for some, it was the loss/destruction of something they DID believe, or if it would be the
    arrival/validation/(whatever) of a COUNTER belief … I think which ever would CAUSE the loss of faith might indicate on what your faith rests more. Evidence? Most sound theory? Gut instinct?

    As a second/follow-up (taking a note from Clayton): How would your life be different? Would your interactions/values change?

  • e9agnus

    I have asked myself this question for many years. At times my scientific mind wants more proof than I have. But it always come down to what you said, Rob. My life experiences have been so convincing to me. I know it might be considered circumstantial to some, but I don't believe in that much supercalifragilisticexpialidocious (sp?) coincidence in one person's life time. I have experienced a sudden inner calm when praying during a time of really high anxiety. I have experienced concerns and fears over financial, career, family and personal issues which resolved in differring time frames, after I have prayed. I have experienced abilities that I do not possess suddenly being there for my use when I really needed it and more was at stake than just my own personal happiness. I have experienced urges to send a note or make a call when needed in a special way by the recipient. (ESP?? – Then why can't I win at poker?) As you said, Jesus had it right. Truth is truth. The only thing which could convince me would be that I die and I die. But then I won't know anyway, right? So if I am helping humanity and live a happier, more content life, why do some non-believers find it so important to convince me I am wrong? But if I am right, wouldn't it behoove everyone to come check it out?

  • Anonymous

    Rob, great analysis. Here’s what I wish I’d said: “On the one hand, my experience of God is so deep, so consistent, and so profound that it is difficult to imagine my losing it. To that extent, you seem to have me where you want me: in an “unfalsifiable,” and therefore irrational, faith stance. On the other hand, my Christian faith really is vulnerable in some ways. If I can’t answer the challenge from evil, if science seems to leave to little place for the “father’ that Jesus spoke of, if I can’t find God in the midst of suffering and tragedy, then I might well depart. How do I know? Because I’ve come close to this before.”

    – Philip Clayton

    • Dave

      It would have been great to see what Dennett would say about what would cause a reversal for him. If, he woke up tomorrow and somehow scientific reason had affirmed the existence of God. Would he react like Hitchens has said, and commit himself to a mental hospital? I just don’t see how his question was very relevant when we’re speaking of complete deconstructions of one’s whole epistemology.

  • http://www.captureeverythought.com Ian Clark

    I don’t know if I can honestly answer that.

    Let me explain: I believe when Jesus said, “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,” he meant it. And the same goes for when Paul said to the Romans, “Do not repay anyone evil for evil” and “Do not take revenge.” I hope that when I’m facing persecution – to the same degree as the 1st century Christians were – I will respond peacefully. I’ve never been physically threatened or doused in flammable liquid and impaled on a spear because of my faith in Jesus (like the 1st century Christians). So I cannot say with 100% certainty that I wouldn’t fight back. What about when my children would be threatened? I’m even less confident.

    So, I feel the same way about my faith in Christ. I hope to think there isn’t a single thing that would make me loose my faith in Christ. But what if I was confronted with irrefutable evidence that it was all just a hoax? Again, I can say “I will never loose my faith in Christ” but those are just words. Maybe that’s what Jesus want us to mean when we say, “Lead me not into temptation/ testing, but deliver me from evil.” I don’t know.

    I will admit that there are many things that make me doubt, but that wasn’t the question.

  • Drew Martin

    I think some of the responses (both given and in general) to this question can help clarify what a person actually has faith in and/or what it’s based on. There’s so much wiggle room and nuance available (even internally every day, I suppose), it’s hard to be precise – even in one’s own head.

    However, I would like to see some responses to the after-effect … “how would your world be different?” Hypothetically (not trying to pigeonhole anyone), if it was deemed irrefutable that Jesus was not supernatural … or not the son of God … or didn’t fulfill any prophecies … or didn’t even exist … would the messages attributed to him seem less valuable, less resonant? Would you stop caring about others’ well being? If it was determined there was no absolute moral authority, would you start killing people or marrying animals?

    If the loss of a faith wouldn’t change your core essence or behaviors – then does it matter if you even HAVE faith? Or in what you have said faith?

    @PhilipClayton – I’d love your thoughts on this.

  • philipclayton

    Rob, great analysis. Here's what I wish I'd said: “On the one hand, my experience of God is so deep, so consistent, and so profound that it is difficult to imagine my losing it. To that extent, you seem to have me where you want me: in an “unfalsifiable,” and therefore irrational, faith stance. On the other hand, my Christian faith really is vulnerable in some ways. If I can't answer the challenge from evil, if science seems to leave to little place for the “father' that Jesus spoke of, if I can't find God in the midst of suffering and tragedy, then I might well depart. How do I know? Because I've come close to this before.”

    – Philip Clayton

  • http://www.ournewchapter.com Ian Clark

    I don't know if I can honestly answer that.

    Let me explain: I believe when Jesus said, “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,” he meant it. And the same goes for when Paul said to the Romans, “Do not repay anyone evil for evil” and “Do not take revenge.” I hope that when I'm facing persecution – to the same degree as the 1st century Christians were – I will respond peacefully. I've never been physically threatened or doused in flammable liquid and impaled on a spear because of my faith in Jesus (like the 1st century Christians). So I cannot say with 100% certainty that I wouldn't fight back. What about when my children would be threatened? I'm even less confident.

    So, I feel the same way about my faith in Christ. I hope to think there isn't a single thing that would make me loose my faith in Christ. But what if I was confronted with irrefutable evidence that it was all just a hoax? Again, I can say “I will never loose my faith in Christ” but those are just words. Maybe that's what Jesus want us to mean when we say, “Lead me not into temptation/ testing, but deliver me from evil.” I don't know.

    I will admit that there are many things that make me doubt, but that wasn't the question.

  • Drew Martin

    I think some of the responses (both given and in general) to this question can help clarify what a person actually has faith in and/or what it's based on. There's so much wiggle room and nuance available (even internally every day, I suppose), it's hard to be precise – even in one's own head.

    However, I would like to see some responses to the after-effect … “how would your world be different?” Hypothetically (not trying to pigeonhole anyone), if it was deemed irrefutable that Jesus was not supernatural … or not the son of God … or didn't fulfill any prophecies … or didn't even exist … would the messages attributed to him seem less valuable, less resonant? Would you stop caring about others' well being? If it was determined there was no absolute moral authority, would you start killing people or marrying animals?

    If the loss of a faith wouldn't change your core essence or behaviors – then does it matter if you even HAVE faith? Or in what you have said faith?

    @PhilipClayton – I'd love your thoughts on this.

  • http://www.captureeverythought.com Ian Clark

    Drew:
    Great question, and a scary one.
    This conversation reminds me of a analogy Rob Bell used in his book “Velvet Elvis” If our “beliefs” are all bricks that hold up our wall of faith, what happens when you remove that brick? The wall becomes unstable. Bell compares bricks of a wall to springs of a trampoline. If our doctrine or beliefs are flexible like springs, they can actually help support our faith and enhance our experience. Wall are built to keep out the people you don’t want to let in (and to keep others in). Trampolines are for jumping! And for inviting others to jump with you.

  • http://www.ournewchapter.com Ian Clark

    Drew:
    Great question, and a scary one.
    This conversation reminds me of a analogy Rob Bell used in his book “Velvet Elvis” If our “beliefs” are all bricks that hold up our wall of faith, what happens when you remove that brick? The wall becomes unstable. Bell compares bricks of a wall to springs of a trampoline. If our doctrine or beliefs are flexible like springs, they can actually help support our faith and enhance our experience. Wall are built to keep out the people you don't want to let in (and to keep others in). Trampolines are for jumping! And for inviting others to jump with you.

  • Dave

    It would have been great to see what Dennett would say about what would cause a reversal for him. If, he woke up tomorrow and somehow scientific reason had affirmed the existence of God. Would he react like Hitchens has said, and commit himself to a mental hospital? I just don't see how his question was very relevant when we're speaking of complete deconstructions of one's whole epistemology.

  • Anonymous

    Dave just suggested that I ask Dan Dennett back what would he do if he woke up tomorrow and found that scientific reason had affirmed the existence of God? Great question; wish I had. Maybe the occasion will arise at some point.

    Drew, I just saw your post today. What if you endorse the values ascribed to Jesus but come to believe that Jesus never existed or did the things ascribed to him? Would it make a difference? Yes, in two senses. Christians have believed that God somehow reached out in Christ. If God hasn’t reached out, then it’s still a great set of values, but there’s no hope that God is going to help us actualize them. Grace is gone. That would be a great loss to the message of Christian hope, and to many of us at the deepest personal level. It’s hard to think of a change that would more fundamentally change Christianity.

    What if you had grace and Jesus’ values, but no sign that any human being had ever actualized those values in him- or herself? Christianity slides closer to existentialism — great hopes and goals, but a hopeless moral situation. God holds out standards that no one can achieve. Also, high moral teachings by themselves become a mental or intellectual goal (think of Confucianism, or Socrates). The highest ideals (“Be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect”) instantiated in a life appeals not just to our minds; the example itself is transformative… even redemptive!

    – Philip Clayton

  • philipclayton

    Dave just suggested that I ask Dan Dennett back what would he do if he woke up tomorrow and found that scientific reason had affirmed the existence of God? Great question; wish I had. Maybe the occasion will arise at some point.

    Drew, I just saw your post today. What if you endorse the values ascribed to Jesus but come to believe that Jesus never existed or did the things ascribed to him? Would it make a difference? Yes, in two senses. Christians have believed that God somehow reached out in Christ. If God hasn't reached out, then it's still a great set of values, but there's no hope that God is going to help us actualize them. Grace is gone. That would be a great loss to the message of Christian hope, and to many of us at the deepest personal level. It's hard to think of a change that would more fundamentally change Christianity.

    What if you had grace and Jesus' values, but no sign that any human being had ever actualized those values in him- or herself? Christianity slides closer to existentialism — great hopes and goals, but a hopeless moral situation. God holds out standards that no one can achieve. Also, high moral teachings by themselves become a mental or intellectual goal (think of Confucianism, or Socrates). The highest ideals (“Be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect”) instantiated in a life appeals not just to our minds; the example itself is transformative… even redemptive!

    – Philip Clayton

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