Comments on: What Would it Take For You to Lose Your Faith?

By: Claremont School of Theology Interfaith University Project at robrynders.com

Claremont School of Theology Interfaith University Project at robrynders.com — Fri, 11 Jun 2010 08:22:39 +0000

[...] Marjorie Suhocki in the same room as Al Mohler and Mark Tooley for a formal theological debate? Maybe we could get Philip Clayton and and Dan Dennett to moderate? Anyway, if you have spent more than about thirty seconds with any of those process theologians [...]

By: philipclayton

philipclayton — Fri, 26 Mar 2010 18:46:29 +0000

Dave just suggested that I ask Dan Dennett back what would he do if he woke up tomorrow and found that scientific reason had affirmed the existence of God? Great question; wish I had. Maybe the occasion will arise at some point.

Drew, I just saw your post today. What if you endorse the values ascribed to Jesus but come to believe that Jesus never existed or did the things ascribed to him? Would it make a difference? Yes, in two senses. Christians have believed that God somehow reached out in Christ. If God hasn't reached out, then it's still a great set of values, but there's no hope that God is going to help us actualize them. Grace is gone. That would be a great loss to the message of Christian hope, and to many of us at the deepest personal level. It's hard to think of a change that would more fundamentally change Christianity.

What if you had grace and Jesus' values, but no sign that any human being had ever actualized those values in him- or herself? Christianity slides closer to existentialism -- great hopes and goals, but a hopeless moral situation. God holds out standards that no one can achieve. Also, high moral teachings by themselves become a mental or intellectual goal (think of Confucianism, or Socrates). The highest ideals ("Be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect") instantiated in a life appeals not just to our minds; the example itself is transformative... even redemptive!

-- Philip Clayton

By: Dave

Dave — Fri, 26 Mar 2010 05:08:59 +0000

It would have been great to see what Dennett would say about what would cause a reversal for him. If, he woke up tomorrow and somehow scientific reason had affirmed the existence of God. Would he react like Hitchens has said, and commit himself to a mental hospital? I just don't see how his question was very relevant when we're speaking of complete deconstructions of one's whole epistemology.

By: Ian Clark

Ian Clark — Thu, 11 Mar 2010 19:21:58 +0000

Drew:
Great question, and a scary one.
This conversation reminds me of a analogy Rob Bell used in his book “Velvet Elvis” If our “beliefs” are all bricks that hold up our wall of faith, what happens when you remove that brick? The wall becomes unstable. Bell compares bricks of a wall to springs of a trampoline. If our doctrine or beliefs are flexible like springs, they can actually help support our faith and enhance our experience. Wall are built to keep out the people you don't want to let in (and to keep others in). Trampolines are for jumping! And for inviting others to jump with you.

By: Drew Martin

Drew Martin — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 00:28:09 +0000

I think some of the responses (both given and in general) to this question can help clarify what a person actually has faith in and/or what it's based on. There's so much wiggle room and nuance available (even internally every day, I suppose), it's hard to be precise – even in one's own head.

However, I would like to see some responses to the after-effect … “how would your world be different?” Hypothetically (not trying to pigeonhole anyone), if it was deemed irrefutable that Jesus was not supernatural … or not the son of God … or didn't fulfill any prophecies … or didn't even exist … would the messages attributed to him seem less valuable, less resonant? Would you stop caring about others' well being? If it was determined there was no absolute moral authority, would you start killing people or marrying animals?

If the loss of a faith wouldn't change your core essence or behaviors – then does it matter if you even HAVE faith? Or in what you have said faith?

@PhilipClayton – I'd love your thoughts on this.

By: Ian Clark

Ian Clark — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 22:08:24 +0000

I don't know if I can honestly answer that.

Let me explain: I believe when Jesus said, "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you," he meant it. And the same goes for when Paul said to the Romans, "Do not repay anyone evil for evil" and "Do not take revenge." I hope that when I'm facing persecution - to the same degree as the 1st century Christians were - I will respond peacefully. I've never been physically threatened or doused in flammable liquid and impaled on a spear because of my faith in Jesus (like the 1st century Christians). So I cannot say with 100% certainty that I wouldn't fight back. What about when my children would be threatened? I'm even less confident.

So, I feel the same way about my faith in Christ. I hope to think there isn't a single thing that would make me loose my faith in Christ. But what if I was confronted with irrefutable evidence that it was all just a hoax? Again, I can say "I will never loose my faith in Christ" but those are just words. Maybe that's what Jesus want us to mean when we say, "Lead me not into temptation/ testing, but deliver me from evil." I don't know.

I will admit that there are many things that make me doubt, but that wasn't the question.

By: philipclayton

philipclayton — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:29:25 +0000

Rob, great analysis. Here's what I wish I'd said: “On the one hand, my experience of God is so deep, so consistent, and so profound that it is difficult to imagine my losing it. To that extent, you seem to have me where you want me: in an “unfalsifiable,” and therefore irrational, faith stance. On the other hand, my Christian faith really is vulnerable in some ways. If I can't answer the challenge from evil, if science seems to leave to little place for the “father' that Jesus spoke of, if I can't find God in the midst of suffering and tragedy, then I might well depart. How do I know? Because I've come close to this before.”

– Philip Clayton

By: e9agnus

e9agnus — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 10:12:41 +0000

I have asked myself this question for many years. At times my scientific mind wants more proof than I have. But it always come down to what you said, Rob. My life experiences have been so convincing to me. I know it might be considered circumstantial to some, but I don't believe in that much supercalifragilisticexpialidocious (sp?) coincidence in one person's life time. I have experienced a sudden inner calm when praying during a time of really high anxiety. I have experienced concerns and fears over financial, career, family and personal issues which resolved in differring time frames, after I have prayed. I have experienced abilities that I do not possess suddenly being there for my use when I really needed it and more was at stake than just my own personal happiness. I have experienced urges to send a note or make a call when needed in a special way by the recipient. (ESP?? – Then why can't I win at poker?) As you said, Jesus had it right. Truth is truth. The only thing which could convince me would be that I die and I die. But then I won't know anyway, right? So if I am helping humanity and live a happier, more content life, why do some non-believers find it so important to convince me I am wrong? But if I am right, wouldn't it behoove everyone to come check it out?

By: Drew Martin

Drew Martin — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 05:47:55 +0000

I'd be interested if for some, it was the loss/destruction of something they DID believe, or if it would be the
arrival/validation/(whatever) of a COUNTER belief … I think which ever would CAUSE the loss of faith might indicate on what your faith rests more. Evidence? Most sound theory? Gut instinct?

As a second/follow-up (taking a note from Clayton): How would your life be different? Would your interactions/values change?